CMDR Dantae
Math doesn't lie.
- Friday at 1:57 PM
- #1,771
Okay, I had a look over the argument now that things cooled down, because I can't resist pitching in. I'm an old hand at wanking my favourite fiction after all. It's why I'm on this site.
To preface this, I've already made my opinion clear. Seat_Admiral is the author, and regardless of how he interprets the setting, what he says goes because he's actually writing the story.
If you don't like that, then go ahead and write your own fanfiction, and portray it the way you want.
I actually told myself that after I
achieved pyrrhic victory in one technical thread a few years ago. Huh, forgot about that one? Crap, I'm already working on a big idea right now.
Anyhow, let me go ahead.
Rotceh said:
I'm pretty sure this is what started the argument, as while it's a cool sentiment, it implies the Falna is weak.
I don't think it should have, because at the of the day, there are just as many stories with biggaton mechs as biggaton Gods. It's a little bizarre to focus on comparing Cyberpunk and Danmachi, but they are the relevant topics in this thread, so I can see how people let their ego get the better of them. And to be clear, it is ego, because the only other way to explain how people get angry when their favourite fictional characters are claimed to be weaker than a fictional character they... don't like as much? Is because they identify with that character, so it feels like an attack on them.
The other possibility, is worship. And I'm no filthy pagan.
Impemperor2.0 said:
Ottar can lift way more than that individual strikes from him can shake entire cities and deserts when he was weaker. Using the stats, we are given as the way to extrapolate strength as a quantifiable thing doesn't really work.
To be clear. There is precisely one solid example of this, when he fought Zald. It was also in Memoria Freese, which has such things as goblins from Goblin Slayer being a threat to Level 3s, Dexterity/Utility being retconned out of it's boost to the senses, Captain Levi from Attack on Titan being stronger than Ais, Ais not being able to use 3D Maneuver gear and getting depressed, and many other things that contradict canon.
If we assume that crossover events are a lower tier of canon, that still leaves Memoria Freese as a questionable source of canon.
Outside of that, we have feats of Ottar causing shockwaves, but even if he only moves at about Mach 1.5, that is still possible. Though things become more blurred if you include the Light Novel Fight between Welf and Zanis both at Level 2. The author described it as producing shockwaves. You could interpret that as exaggeration quite easily if you wanted.
This is not to say I don't think this is a valid interpretation. There is a feat for Ais moving at 200 km/s in the manga, when she jumps between a meter and a couple dozen meters in 0.00011 seconds. However the same manga also has Finn move at a glacially slow speed despite being faster than her (this was when she wasn't using Ariel), where while carrying Loki, he throws her up, then cuts a Violas into pieces, over the course of a second. Which is pretty slow. He strikes around a dozen times, but I can do half that with a spoon, and I'm Level Zero.
So, to put it bluntly, Danmachi is all over the place, like most fiction. It's high ends however, don't cause massive amounts of destruction. Ais moving at 200 km/s would create 1 million megajoules of energy, which would all be released on the ground that she touched. Which the manga panel, linked here, does not show. That's a Trillion Joules, or a TeraJoule. Equal to about 250 tons of TNT. At 20 km/s which would mean she moved a meter in that time. It would create 1% of that, or 10 GJ, which is about 2.5 tons of TNT equivalent. Which the picture also does not show.
You can excuse this with rule of cool, or divinity ignoring physics, but that's down to interpretation.
ptl said:
Unless superior futuristic or even supernatural materials or just plain ol' rule of cool are applied, the square-cube law is a bitch.
You really think Cyberpunk doesn't have those? I mean come one. Even our Titanium implants have to be replaced every ten years because of the wear and tear that happens. Their technology is obviously better, they have a 4km space station. Or maybe they just have the Nanites in the DaiOni repair it while it's falling apart, because they could literally just do that if they wanted to.
Seat_Admiral said:
No
That didn't happen.
Because that feat says that the clash could be heard from the other side of Orario.
Orario is several miles across.For people on the other side to hear the clash of those blows, they would have to be loud enough to permanently deafen the people who were adjacent to the fight going on. Because that's how sound and physics works. This rapidly lose energy as they travel through atmosphere and Orario is big.
As we didn't have 1/5th of the population of a massive city go deaf, we can easily figure that it was another instance of authorial exaggeration being taken seriously by powerscalers without regard for what poetic language is.
Otherwise this is really stupid.
Quantifiable strength works perfectly fine when you make allowances for dramatic language not being perfectly accurate to reality.
This is a valid interpretation. For example, when hearing a loud sound, especially with a lower frequency, like from a whale but still audible, it feels like you're shaking.
Adventurers according to every source but the Memoria Freese Goblin Slayer event have superior senses allowing them to see in the low light levels of the Dungeon.
If we assume this affects more than sight, feeling the soundwave of a heavy clash in your body would make it seem like the whole was shaking if you weren't adjusted to it.
Though I suppose the part in the Novels where Ottar kills high level monster by fighting close to them is a little bit hard to explain, but I don't actually know if that one's true, I haven't read it myself yet.
Seat_Admiral said:
'Unbelievable! Each of their attacks shocks the entire city!' a statement by a character in-universe who is clearly awed by the exchange.
Yeah no, that's just dramatic wording.
There's literally no evidence of that actually shaking the city beyond one lady making an ambiguous claim and the screen shaking a little bit.
That evidence ain't enough.If there was an omniscient narrator or something saying outright that the fight was shaking the entire city, i'd have to give it to you.
There isn't.
One lady's making a claim she cannot reasonably verify ain't worth jack sh*t for measuring other than 'they hit hard'
This is fully correct. A single instance, especially without visual examples of people in the streets falling over or buildings toppling from the Earthquake is obviously open to interpretation.
Impemperor2.0 said:
I'm not pretending this is a vs debate. I'm not arguing that one would win against the other. I also haven't given out my thoughts for how strong or fast or durable the characters are shaking a city isn't quantifiable. I'm mainly confused on how you can intake the source material of danmachi pretend that something that is clearly shown isn't real and apply real life laws of physics on sound to a fictional piece.
No. This a VS debate. One from a place of ego. Lets admit that, and I find it painful enough saying this, but this argument should never have happened in the first place. As much as I love Danmachi's biggatons especially when it gets crapped on so much on fanfiction.net, this is a good fanfiction, and Seat has already researched Danmachi more than adequately.
Seat_Admiral said:
Did you know that Saint Seiya characters can totally move at Lightspeed and that all Dragonball characters are moving so fast we can never see them? They're talking is just slowed down for our benefit yanno? They're actually moving way faster in real time. They're totally much faster and because they punch at lightspeed they have enough kinetic force to blow up the solar system when they punch their hardest.
That's what we get when we start taking dramatic claims literally.
Anime tends to make ambiguous claims for dramatic effect, then powerscalers take those dramatic claims completely literally and ruin any sense of proper scaling behind their wankery.
I outline how Ottar is strong enough to walk off artillery strikes and strong enough to backhand battleships, how he has already reached the point where he cannot fully apply his strength to the world around him thanks to the earth being far weaker than he is, and you tell me I'm wrong and heavily imply I'm incompetent for doing so and that he's actually way stronger (even though he is already literally too strong to lift his full capacity thanks to the f*cking ground having weight limits too).
Because number must be bigger.
I'm deeply annoyed by you friend.
Be careful not to say that about Dragon Ball in South America. Goku is literally their mascot. Also, I already believed both of the above, but then again, I'm a pretty gullible person.
Glad to finally get this over with. It's been eating at me since I read through the argument yesterday.
On a different topic, would Goku get along with Adam. They both love fighting. I think Adam's PanzerFaust would let him use Ki without needing to be taught as well. It's basically magic after all.
If Adam had woken up in Dragonball, how do you think it would have gone?
